Corporal Punishment

[gd4u]

I heard a better excuse for punishment (or scolding) recently, "we see last time u scold us, then now we scold them lor", as in monkey see, monkey do... I almost fainted when i heard it ...

[kestrel83]

isaura said:

Though the Korea army incident is "another story" as Chris86 said, it does show what might happen if the use of shame in training is not done skilfully. When used effectively and positively (very important!), shame can be a driving force for the person being punished. But when shame is used negatively or excessively, the person's esteem may be crushed, causing him to do the most unexpected and most drastic.

Use responsibly and sparingly, I guess.

So use shame skillfully....

[kestrel83]

gd4u said:

I heard a better excuse for punishment (or scolding) recently, "we see last time u scold us, then now we scold them lor", as in monkey see, monkey do... I almost fainted when i heard it ...

I thought MOE teaches ppl to think these days? What happened? Children nowadays are like robots... despite what MOE tries to do.

Maybe too many kids have a gd life in our society... dunno what it means to have a hard life. Everything is sthingy-fed to them such that they cannot think for themselves. What is happening to our society?

[kestrel83]

Eh? Is 'p o o n' a bad word? How come my 'sp oon' become 'sthingy'?

[coolbreeze]

kestrel83 said:

gd4u said:

I heard a better excuse for punishment (or scolding) recently, "we see last time u scold us, then now we scold them lor", as in monkey see, monkey do... I almost fainted when i heard it ...

I thought MOE teaches ppl to think these days? What happened? Children nowadays are like robots... despite what MOE tries to do.

Maybe too many kids have a gd life in our society... dunno what it means to have a hard life. Everything is sthingy-fed to them such that they cannot think for themselves. What is happening to our society?

Hahaha... *manages a forced grin* precisely the outcome when punishment isn't done adequately and the kids who were previously punished do not know why they were being punished... They replicate the actions without thinking and the vicious cycle continues. Agree with kestrel83, Singapore kids only do things now, they don't really think anymore. *sigh*

Anyway, am quite intrigued by the 's p o o n' thing... sthingy sthingy sthingy... did the previous three words come out right?

[coolbreeze]

wow the word "s p o o n" really didn't come out, I wonder why.

Anyway, since this thread is about corporal punishment, just wanna share some information I found regarding this issue.

Firstly, the following document was found during a google search regarding this issue last year. Incidentally, when I tried to look for the document just now, I couldn't find it.

Anyway, according to this document:

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT

B298

Only the Principal has the authority to administer corporal punishment. He/she may, however, delegate the task to the Vice-Principal, a Head of Department or another senior teacher in the school.

The guidelines for the carrying out of corporal punishment are:
i. A range of 1 to 6 strokes of a light cane may be given on the palms or buttocks and nowhere else. There must be restraint in the administration of corporal punishment.

ii. Other forms of corporal punishment are strictly forbidden.

iii. Only boys may be caned. Under no circumstances should girls be subjected to corporal punishment.

iv. Caning will be carried out by either the Principal or a delegated senior member of staff.

v. The cane should not be used in anger.

vi. A proper record should be kept to include the name of the pupil, the person who used the cane, witnesses, the nature of the offence and the number of strokes given.
„X The date and time
„X The pupil's parents should be informed immediately with details of the offence and the punishment meted out.


Corporal punishment should be used only as a last resort.


(Extracted from Principals' Handbook)



Secondly, I found something more relevant to uniformed groups regarding this issue, in the Red Cross homepage. Named "MOE Guidelines on Training and Safety":

(www.redcross.org.sg/youth/download/5/MOE-MOE%20GUIDELINES%20ON%20TRAINING%20AND%20SAFETY.pdf),

it states the following points relating to punishment:

1.3 No corporal punishment in any form is allowed to be given

1.4 Physical training allowed only if it is in the official programme

1.5 Physical punishments should not be given to instil discipline- can consider other strategies such as role- modelling, positive strokes

This document also has other useful guidelines about training safety, e.g. ratio of officer-to-cadet etc. Interesting information to take note of for all of us.

(If anyone cannot access the pdf link I put up above, or want a copy of the actual files, pls private msg me so that I can send you the files).

[kestrel83]

Well, what MOE guidelines say and what happens on the ground seems to be two quite different things.

So if we take this literally, then we cannot ask cadets to do push ups anymore izzit? I believe that using push ups and corporal punishment PROPERLY serves as a prompt and effective way to make cadets 'wake up'.

Today, during my unit training, this was further reinforced in my mind. I made my Sec 2 cadets run to touch faraway objects (eg tree, van, etc) becoz they were still 'sleeping'. Still in the holiday mood. And it worked! They became more responsive after that. If something works, why should we change the system?

Juz scolding alone does not work, and neither will 'positive strokes' alone. As a uniformed group, discipline is the name of the game. If we follow these MOE safety guidelines, then it becomes NATO (No Action Talk Only).

[coolbreeze]

well... perhaps what happens on the ground happens just like the way it is in the army: whatever you do, just don't get caught or get into trouble? I'm sure kestrel83 knows this better than anyone else, since you often allude to the armed forces in your posts...
Anyway, I feel guidelines are called "guidelines" and not called "rules" or even "laws" for a reason... They serve to provide direction and benchmarks to follow, but not to the extent that these guidelines severely affect how we function. Nevertheless, these guidelines are there to regulate the running of uniformed organisations, which was why I felt it'd be good to share this information with everyone here.

[kestrel83]

Yes... gd pt by coolbreeze... whatever u do, dun get caught. The guidelines are there to 'guide' u, but they are not rules that must be adhered to strictly.

Thanks for bringing up that point.

[Bas]

i think if the training does not cause injury to the cadets in any way, it would be fine. of course there will have to be a limit.

[fatso241]

I think the guidelines should be follow strictly .I think they use guildlines to deter anyone doing anything overboard.The comando who died by the dunking lesson was due to the fact that the trainer do not follow the guildlines.I think the guildlines was stated by the professional from MOE.There is still other ways of teaching cadets.Pumping may seems safe but it is bad for the cadets (essp the girls)If it is not done properly,it may hurt the spine of the girls who is dangerous as it will somehow affect their prenaency (tt why not canning can be done on girls).
I stress again the guildlines should be follow as it is a mirror of the Children and young people act which is part of our law system.
If we think from the parent's view,will you be hurt when you see your child getting the unfair and not approved punishment?

[Bas]

kestrel83 said:

Eh? Is 'p o o n' a bad word? How come my 'sp oon' become 'sthingy'?

p o o n means...something in tamil i think. ;D
msg me on msn i'll tell u.

[ahwatt]

ok can juz anyone ans wer me... ok.. so now is can punish them by pull ups or cannot? IF NOT, then wad can we as NCOs or CIs do?....... juz a Q... yep

[Bas]

guide cadets?

i think the punishment and stuff, is like a package deal. if i ask any cadet, the part of NPCC he/she would remember most was knocking it down with his/her fellow squadmates, all the hardship, shoutings and running around they've been through as a squad.

[kestrel83]

fatso241 said:

I think the guidelines should be follow strictly .I think they use guildlines to deter anyone doing anything overboard.The comando who died by the dunking lesson was due to the fact that the trainer do not follow the guildlines.I think the guildlines was stated by the professional from MOE.There is still other ways of teaching cadets.Pumping may seems safe but it is bad for the cadets (essp the girls)If it is not done properly,it may hurt the spine of the girls who is dangerous as it will somehow affect their prenaency (tt why not canning can be done on girls).
I stress again the guildlines should be follow as it is a mirror of the Children and young people act which is part of our law system.
If we think from the parent's view,will you be hurt when you see your child getting the unfair and not approved punishment?

Cannot pump? Then u see that flower? Run to that flower, smell the flower and come back in 10 secs....

No, seriously, parents are getting weak-minded nowadays, and the children even more so. Fatso241, u try becoming a CI one day and see how much good 'positive strokes' ALONE will help u.

Ask Chris86... I'm a nice guy who gives cadets a lot of 'positive strokes' during training, but sometimes, they will need some good disciplining.

The moment u close one eye, that is the moment they will step on ur head... my personal motto (besides 'There is no school better than the old school').

Anyway, wat is corporal punishment? The word 'corporal' comes from the Anglo-Saxon word 'corporeal' meaning 'bodily'.

So, corporal punishment would also mean 'bodily punishment' or physical punishment, right?

Physical punishment is using physical exercise as a form of punishment. Therefore, extra drills, being a form of physical exercise cannot be used as punishment following this logic, correct?

So if ur drills sux, what are the CIs supposed to do? Smile and say "That was excellent, but we can do better next time. I think we can improve in this area of the drills. Let's all take 1 hour break before the next session of training to refresh ourselves" right?

If this does happen in ur unit, pls remind me to decorate ur cadets with pretty flowers during the next NPCC day parade ok?

Oh, lets not do PT while we are at it, becoz PTIs can inadvertantly cause grave harm to ur fragile bodies...

Let's not do campfire anymore, becoz there is a great fire risk.... No drills becoz we can cause blisters.... No campcraft becoz cadets can accidently poke themselves with the tent pegs... No field cooking becoz of fire hazard... No live firing becoz of the danger of handling live ammo...

Etc, etc....



U see where I'm getting at? Parents love their kids too much these days. Little princes and princesses. I had a parent who called me to ask where her daughter was after training... as if I should keep track of where they go after dismissal.

Coming back to the point, I believe (sorry teachers) that MOE is bending over backwards to cater to parents' (over-) concern. I lived in an era where the cane still ruled supreme in school. In fact, I feel that those born around the early 80s were the last of the dying breed of ppl who actually tasted the cane in one way or another.

The result: Cadets (and students) getting more physically and mentally weaker by the day. I was forced to do push ups in pri sch, and could do at least 10 reasonable ones in sec 1. What is it like now? Last training, after 10 pushups, 7 cadets out of 15 fell out becoz they din feel well. AFTER 10 MISERABLE NOT-UP-TO-STANDARD PUSHUPS.

And to think I cut corners on the standards during that training when it came to punishments....

How can push up affect the pregnancy of girls? How about those girls my age who were in NPCC? They are fit, and reproductively healthy. One even has 2 kids now.

As an aside, the commando who died from dunking was unfortunate, but his training was realistic. If we ban dunking now, wat happens if the enemy dunks him? He has not been trained, so will he spill everything? The Navy Seals still continue this training... even the average Marine still does it.

If this 'professional' at MOE does intend that we instructors use some other way to train NPCC cadets, then wat is it?

Fatso241, u come up with some effective training that does not include corporal punishment and only 'positive strokes', and test it to see if it works even in the roughest schools. I wish u luck.

As to the issue of unapproved punishment, what is an approved punishment then? Ur uniform is horrible, so the CI tells u to write lines izzit? Write "I will iron my uniform" 100 times.

Oh wait, that is still corporal punishment, becoz ur hand will hurt after that.

Instructors, speak up: Should corporal punishment be abolished in NPCC, at least at unit level?

Like coolbreeze said, it is a GUIDELINE... not a LAW or RULE that must be adhered to strictly.

As a last point, in my unit, to withstand corporal punishment is a sign that u r strong (at least to my NCO and senior NCOs). There are some cadets like u in my unit, and these ppl get bullied by others, even to the point of getting beaten up. Though I condemn beating anyone up, I do agree with the principle behind it.

At least, I'm proud that I can mould one unit of cadets to become TOUGHER useful citizens of Singapore.

(Kick me if u want over this, I believe very strongly that corporal punishment works. If u dun believe me, I will more than willing to demonstrate its effectiveness in ur unit